For Brit Readers : Do you get fed up when a grease monkey is called Engineer?

[John]

A Downing Street petition to try and make the word Engineer legally
protected, like Architect or Solicitor.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

[Usual Suspect]

Post by John
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

Oh, fer cryin' out loud.

Solicitors and architects I would want to defend/design something that might
land me in hospital or jail.

Come on, isn't this just a bit silly... There are plenty of professional
engineering societies that one can join so as to favorably impress potential
clients with your experience and/or knowledge for doing a job for them.

But isn't word-of-mouth advertising the best way to gain clients?

Protectionism is one of last bastions of the incompetent, imo.

[John]

Post by Usual Suspect

Post by John
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

Oh, fer cryin' out loud.
Solicitors and architects I would want to defend/design something that might
land me in hospital or jail.
Come on, isn't this just a bit silly... There are plenty of professional
engineering societies that one can join so as to favorably impress potential
clients with your experience and/or knowledge for doing a job for them.
But isn't word-of-mouth advertising the best way to gain clients?
Protectionism is one of last bastions of the incompetent, imo.
--
Al, the usual

In the USA, what are the minimum requirements before someone can call
themselves Engineer?

In most countries there are certain educational/training requirements.

[Usual Suspect]

Post by John
In the USA, what are the minimum requirements before someone can call
themselves Engineer?

None that I know of.

And why should anybody care? It's what you can *do* that matters, not what
you call yourself.

Post by John
In most countries there are certain educational/training requirements.

Ah, I see the ego is international...

[b***@abc.net]

In the UK "real engineers" suffer because the public and industry in general
do not appreciate the level of training and effect we have to put in to get
our qualification.
I worked from the age of 15 in engineering, doing an apprenticeship and
studying for my engineering qualifications.
This route has now all but disappeared and generally there is a lack of real
training opportunities for potential engineers in the UK.
Coupled with this engineer have little status (hence low pay) when compared
with the rest of Europe and the USA.
Few students now consider engineering as a career and this will lead long
term to a decline in UK engineering when compared with say Germany and the
USA where engineering is still considered to be a viable career option.

I fully agree its is what you can do that really matter, but when industry
does not appear to value and reward your effort, why would anyone think of
taking engineering up as a career. I have been a member of a professional
engineering institute in the UK for forty years and have witnessed a steady
decline in engineers status and pay relative to other professions. Engineers
pay has not kept pace with inflation

Unless the UK government make an effort to promote engineering as a
profession, the UK will not have engineers to support an engineering
industry in the future because at the end of the day its the pay that
counts. Having said all that I have had forty eight year of job enjoyment,
twenty seven of these as the technical director of a major engineering
company. For the last seven years I have worked for a major European product
testing and certification group as a senior safety engineer and again have
enjoyed the job, if not the pay. Unfortunately with great regret I would not
encourage anyone to become an engineer currently in the UK, unless changes
are made to the status they will have within industry. They will do better
financially if they went into accountancy and have far less worry and hassle
than as an engineer.
The feeling I have express are common within the engineering industry in the
UK.

BillB

I Eng MIED

[Palindrome]

Post by b***@abc.net
In the UK "real engineers" suffer because the public and industry in general
do not appreciate the level of training and effect we have to put in to get
our qualification.
I worked from the age of 15 in engineering, doing an apprenticeship and
studying for my engineering qualifications.
This route has now all but disappeared and generally there is a lack of real
training opportunities for potential engineers in the UK.
Coupled with this engineer have little status (hence low pay) when compared
with the rest of Europe and the USA.
Few students now consider engineering as a career and this will lead long
term to a decline in UK engineering when compared with say Germany and the
USA where engineering is still considered to be a viable career option.
I fully agree its is what you can do that really matter, but when industry
does not appear to value and reward your effort, why would anyone think of
taking engineering up as a career. I have been a member of a professional
engineering institute in the UK for forty years and have witnessed a steady
decline in engineers status and pay relative to other professions. Engineers
pay has not kept pace with inflation
Unless the UK government make an effort to promote engineering as a
profession, the UK will not have engineers to support an engineering
industry in the future because at the end of the day its the pay that
counts. Having said all that I have had forty eight year of job enjoyment,
twenty seven of these as the technical director of a major engineering
company. For the last seven years I have worked for a major European product
testing and certification group as a senior safety engineer and again have
enjoyed the job, if not the pay. Unfortunately with great regret I would not
encourage anyone to become an engineer currently in the UK, unless changes
are made to the status they will have within industry. They will do better
financially if they went into accountancy and have far less worry and hassle
than as an engineer.
The feeling I have express are common within the engineering industry in the
UK.

The UK has "modern apprenticeships" now, for those going into work after
GCSEs or A levels (ef at 16 or 18 yars old)

http://www.elwa.ac.uk/ElwaWeb/elwa.aspx?pageid=645

IME *Chartered* status is well recognised and understood. Getting that
status generally requires at least a masters degree or equivalent. This
equates with the same sort of qualifications needed to become a lawyer,
doctor, or other professional. Unfortunately, anything less than that is
not as well recognised and valued.

Rates of 800 - 1000 GBP a day for long term contracts are common and not
exactly "low pay".

As with most professions, you have to move between posts to advance your
career - umpteen years in the same job is not a good career choice for
any professional.

I would have no hesitation in encouraging anyone to take up engineering
as a career, within the UK - if they love engineering. In most
engineering disciplines the rate of change is fantastic, so that getting
bored with the job isn't going to happen. Even if given the same major
project again, the solution the second time is almost certainly going to
be radically different to the first. There can be no resting on laurels
and tales of, "In my day, we did it that way". Keeping your knowledge
and skills in date is a great challenge - more so than almost any other
profession. Hence the need to love the subject - it will consume most of
your waking hours. If you want to do the same old thing year after year
then, yes, become an accountant.

The "disadvantages" are many. Three or more years of a *good* first
degree with a lot of math. Anything less than an upper second is not
acceptable, as it won't get entry to a masters degree. One or more years
of masters degree, either as a taught degree or postgraduate research.
But, if you love engineering, those years of learning are hardly a
chore. Getting the first couple of jobs, gaining the experience needed
for CEng.

But after that, the Universe is your Mollusc. What you do can really be,
exactly "Rocket Science"..

[daestrom]

Post by John

Post by Usual Suspect

Post by John
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

Oh, fer cryin' out loud.
Solicitors and architects I would want to defend/design something that might
land me in hospital or jail.
Come on, isn't this just a bit silly... There are plenty of professional
engineering societies that one can join so as to favorably impress potential
clients with your experience and/or knowledge for doing a job for them.
But isn't word-of-mouth advertising the best way to gain clients?
Protectionism is one of last bastions of the incompetent, imo.
--
Al, the usual

In the USA, what are the minimum requirements before someone can call
themselves Engineer?
In most countries there are certain educational/training requirements.

A key phrase in the US is 'professional engineer' (or PE for short). To be
able to claim that title, one must pass a state certification exam, hold a
specific degree in the field of interest and maintain a certain amount of
'continuing education'.

In many states the final sign-off on plans for a wide variety of projects
must be by a PE. Others may help with the design and analysis, but it's the
PE who's signature appears on the final document that is culpable.

daestrom

[VWWall]

Post by John
In the USA, what are the minimum requirements before someone can call
themselves Engineer?

This is a state requirement, but to legally use the term Professional
Engineer, one has to be registered. This requires at least an
recognized degree, (4 years, normally), plus several years of
professional experience. The only industries that *require* a P.E., are
usually government positions.

Post by John
In most countries there are certain educational/training requirements.

In the USA these license requirements are set by the individual states,
just like the requirements for a Medical License. In both cases there
is much reciprocity among the states.

[b***@certsoft.com]

Post by John
In the USA, what are the minimum requirements before someone can call
themselves Engineer?

I heard Texas restricts the use of the word "Engineer" to registered
professional engineers only. There may be similar requirements in
Canada.

[SBC Yahoo]

Post by b***@certsoft.com

Post by John
In the USA, what are the minimum requirements before someone can call
themselves Engineer?

I heard Texas restricts the use of the word "Engineer" to registered
professional engineers only. There may be similar requirements in
Canada.

You need a degree in a Engineering Discipline (electrical, mechanical,
civil, chemical, etc.) from a ABET acredited school. To advertise or
provide engineering services, you must be , or work for a Registered
Professional Engineer (PE), in the state where the work is to be performed.

The garbage men in some California cities call themselves Sanitary
Engineers, and they got the municipalities to change their job title. My
garbage is hauled away by a "engineer".

[amp is]

It's public perception they are up against- the public do think an engineer
(as in engine) is someone on the back of a locomotive with an oil can.

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Post by John
A Downing Street petition to try and make the word Engineer legally
protected, like Architect or Solicitor.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

It is legally protected (at the state level) in the USA for the purposes
of offering engineering services and designing facilities required to
comply with building and safety codes.

As far as the title goes as an employee, with the exception of certain
code compliance design issues, a company can drag any bum off a park
bench (and I think some do) and give them the title 'engineer'.

[John]

Post by Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Post by John
A Downing Street petition to try and make the word Engineer legally
protected, like Architect or Solicitor.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

It is legally protected (at the state level) in the USA for the purposes
of offering engineering services and designing facilities required to
comply with building and safety codes.
As far as the title goes as an employee, with the exception of certain
code compliance design issues, a company can drag any bum off a park
bench (and I think some do) and give them the title 'engineer'.

Paul,

Thanks for the info. Also thanks to Bill and Sue for their succinct comments
and observations.

I'm intrigued to know if in the Sates, if you phone up a company to get the
Heating Boiler/TV Antenna/Refrigerator/Dishwasher/etc/etc repaired if the
company tells you they are going to send round their "Engineer".


John

[ms]

Post by John

Post by Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Post by John
A Downing Street petition to try and make the word Engineer legally
protected, like Architect or Solicitor.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

It is legally protected (at the state level) in the USA for the purposes
of offering engineering services and designing facilities required to
comply with building and safety codes.
As far as the title goes as an employee, with the exception of certain
code compliance design issues, a company can drag any bum off a park
bench (and I think some do) and give them the title 'engineer'.

Paul,
Thanks for the info. Also thanks to Bill and Sue for their succinct comments
and observations.
I'm intrigued to know if in the Sates, if you phone up a company to get the
Heating Boiler/TV Antenna/Refrigerator/Dishwasher/etc/etc repaired if the
company tells you they are going to send round their "Engineer".
John

Probably depends on the state, but where I live one cannot include the word
"engineer" or "engineering" in the company name unless a licensed
professional engineer is a principal.

[John]

Post by ms
Probably depends on the state, but where I live one cannot include the
word "engineer" or "engineering" in the company name unless a licensed
professional engineer is a principal.

At least that's more positive than here in the UK where anyone can set up in
business and call themselves "engineer" or their business "engineering".

[Usual Suspect]

Post by John
I'm intrigued to know if in the Sates, if you phone up a company to get the
Heating Boiler/TV Antenna/Refrigerator/Dishwasher/etc/etc repaired if the
company tells you they are going to send round their "Engineer".
John

In the States it's common for an on-call technician to be called a Field
Engineer when his job is to travel to a customer's site to accomplish repairs
or such.

But so what? I doubt that whomever is asking for a service visit will care if
he's called a "Service Clown" or Engineer or what. Similarly, when people are
asking for design services, or such, I think they don't really care (or ask)
if their title is "Engineer".

What's the purpose of your inquiry? If the customer doesn't care about titles
(and I haven't read any evidence that suggests they might), what's the reason
it?

Respectfully,

[Danny]

Post by Usual Suspect
In the States it's common for an on-call technician to be called a Field
Engineer when his job is to travel to a customer's site to accomplish repairs
or such.

if he's an on-call technician then he should be called a technician.
simple as that.

Post by Usual Suspect
But so what? I doubt that whomever is asking for a service visit will care if
he's called a "Service Clown" or Engineer or what. Similarly, when people are
asking for design services, or such, I think they don't really care (or ask)
if their title is "Engineer".

Only because they don't appreciate the differences involved between
technicians, engineering officers and (and incorporated engineers in
between) chartered (professional) engineers....because of opinions
like urs.

Post by Usual Suspect
What's the purpose of your inquiry? If the customer doesn't care about titles
(and I haven't read any evidence that suggests they might), what's the reason
it?

because some of us who have got the appropriate qualifications might
get to enjoy the increase in income that seems to be prevalent in
countries where the engineers do enjoy a protected title. Oh my
word...have i said a rude word about getting appropriately rewarded
for my work. FWIW i was a techo for 18 years prior to getting my
degrees and chartered status. let me tell you the responsibility is a
lot higher as is the demands of my C.Eng position with respect to my
techo days. No disrespect intended to technicians. They have an
absolutely pivotal role in the order of things and good ones help make
my job so much easier....but (usually) engineers, they ain't!

[Usual Suspect]

Post by Danny

Post by Usual Suspect
In the States it's common for an on-call technician to be called a Field
Engineer when his job is to travel to a customer's site to accomplish repairs
or such.

if he's an on-call technician then he should be called a technician.
simple as that.

Because...? ("Simple as that" rings as a mommalie similar to "because I said
so".)

Post by Danny

Post by Usual Suspect
But so what? I doubt that whomever is asking for a service visit will care if
he's called a "Service Clown" or Engineer or what. Similarly, when people are
asking for design services, or such, I think they don't really care (or ask)
if their title is "Engineer".

Only because they don't appreciate the differences involved between
technicians, engineering officers and (and incorporated engineers in
between) chartered (professional) engineers....because of opinions
like urs.

A customer isn't paying for the title. They're paying for results, regardless
of what the guy/gal is called.

Post by Danny

Post by Usual Suspect
What's the purpose of your inquiry? If the customer doesn't care about titles
(and I haven't read any evidence that suggests they might), what's the reason
it?

because some of us who have got the appropriate qualifications might
get to enjoy the increase in income that seems to be prevalent in
countries where the engineers do enjoy a protected title. Oh my
word...have i said a rude word about getting appropriately rewarded
for my work.

No, if you would again read what you said, you said you want to get paid for
qualifications and titles, not for your accomplishments.

Post by Danny
FWIW i was a techo for 18 years prior to getting my
degrees and chartered status. let me tell you the responsibility is a
lot higher as is the demands of my C.Eng position with respect to my
techo days. No disrespect intended to technicians. They have an
absolutely pivotal role in the order of things and good ones help make
my job so much easier....but (usually) engineers, they ain't!

I am all for a creative educated person getting paid what they're worth. We
both know plenty of people (of all titles) who create crap and get paid much
more than their work is worth.

My point is that titles don't mean squat. If the kitchen help can reliably
re-design the accounting network to make it more reliable, I'll call him
whatever he wants to be called and pay him according to his success.

[Palindrome]

Post by Usual Suspect

Post by Danny

Post by Usual Suspect
In the States it's common for an on-call technician to be called a Field
Engineer when his job is to travel to a customer's site to accomplish repairs
or such.

if he's an on-call technician then he should be called a technician.
simple as that.

Because...? ("Simple as that" rings as a mommalie similar to "because I said
so".)

Post by Danny

Post by Usual Suspect
But so what? I doubt that whomever is asking for a service visit will care if
he's called a "Service Clown" or Engineer or what. Similarly, when people are
asking for design services, or such, I think they don't really care (or ask)
if their title is "Engineer".

Only because they don't appreciate the differences involved between
technicians, engineering officers and (and incorporated engineers in
between) chartered (professional) engineers....because of opinions
like urs.

A customer isn't paying for the title. They're paying for results, regardless
of what the guy/gal is called.

Post by Danny

Post by Usual Suspect
What's the purpose of your inquiry? If the customer doesn't care about titles
(and I haven't read any evidence that suggests they might), what's the reason
it?

because some of us who have got the appropriate qualifications might
get to enjoy the increase in income that seems to be prevalent in
countries where the engineers do enjoy a protected title. Oh my
word...have i said a rude word about getting appropriately rewarded
for my work.

No, if you would again read what you said, you said you want to get paid for
qualifications and titles, not for your accomplishments.

Post by Danny
FWIW i was a techo for 18 years prior to getting my
degrees and chartered status. let me tell you the responsibility is a
lot higher as is the demands of my C.Eng position with respect to my
techo days. No disrespect intended to technicians. They have an
absolutely pivotal role in the order of things and good ones help make
my job so much easier....but (usually) engineers, they ain't!

I am all for a creative educated person getting paid what they're worth. We
both know plenty of people (of all titles) who create crap and get paid much
more than their work is worth.
My point is that titles don't mean squat. If the kitchen help can reliably
re-design the accounting network to make it more reliable, I'll call him
whatever he wants to be called and pay him according to his success.

Something like a CEng does mean something. It means that a board of
engineers has convened and gone through the individual's academic and
experience record in great detail. Then summoned the individual to an
hour or more of probing interrogation. It means that any complaint about
the professional competence or ethics of the CEng will be investigated
very thoroughly and will be acted on.

That isn't to say that a "kitchen help" couldn't pass the same scrutiny
- but only that he hasn't. So, as an employer interviewing a potential
employee, you would have to do the equivalent of the board's work.

There are a few highly gifted *engineers* that I know that have no bits
of paper or letters to their name. Often they went to Uni and left bored
in the first year. I'd give any of them a job tomorrow - but only
becuase I know how good they are. They are first-rate engineers who
absolutely deserve the title. But they are very, very few in number.

[Engineering Boffin]

I believe that the title of Engineer should be protected. A
'qualification', or 'experience' does not make you an engineer. The
title should only be awarded to those who have demonstrated
competancies in their field against a recognised benchmark. Only then
will the ambiguity be resolved. Although this is somewhat addressed in
the UK by the title of 'Chartered Engineer', few people aim for this
title as it only holds weight in certain circles.

Best regards, Alan. (Working towards Chartered Engineer - view my
profile)

[b_foote]

In usa a "professional engineer" is one licenced by the state, after being
tested to be "responsible for life and property of the public" and any
irresponsibility is closely followed by legal and financial suits, loss of
professional licence, and usually carreer loss... after they take your house
and personal assets...

A professional engineer knows where his area of expertise is, and what he
can competently sign for, and if he's asked to sign off on a project that
includes other areas of expertice, he knows or will find other professional
engineers with expertise in those areas to sign off on those other areas....
A professional engineer, when he signs off on a project takes "professional
responsibility" for the safety of the design to the "fullest extent of
everything he has or ever will own" .. If he signs off on a building, or a
bridge, or an overhead high tension electrical distribution system, or the
design of a carnival ride, an airplane, truck or public conveyance....
"NOBODY IS GOING TO KILLED, DIE, OR BE HARMED DUE TO THE ADEQUACY OR
INADEQUACY OF THE DESIGN"....
It's not just government, or civil, it is "public safety" ....
There may be many various engineers working on a project, under the review
and approval of a Professional Engineer. Most insurance companies won't
insure a company for product liability, with out the review and signature
and stamp of approval by a licenced professional engineer..... Best Regards

Post by Engineering Boffin
I believe that the title of Engineer should be protected. A
'qualification', or 'experience' does not make you an engineer. The
title should only be awarded to those who have demonstrated
competancies in their field against a recognised benchmark. Only then
will the ambiguity be resolved. Although this is somewhat addressed in
the UK by the title of 'Chartered Engineer', few people aim for this
title as it only holds weight in certain circles.
Best regards, Alan. (Working towards Chartered Engineer - view my
profile)

[Martin Crossley]

Engineering Boffin wrote:
:: I believe that the title of Engineer should be protected. A
:: 'qualification', or 'experience' does not make you an engineer. The
:: title should only be awarded to those who have demonstrated
:: competancies in their field against a recognised benchmark. Only then
:: will the ambiguity be resolved. Although this is somewhat addressed
:: in the UK by the title of 'Chartered Engineer', few people aim for
:: this title as it only holds weight in certain circles.
::
:: Best regards, Alan. (Working towards Chartered Engineer - view my
:: profile)

Whilst I agree that specific titles such as Chartered Engineer, EurIng and
MIEE should be protected and given appropriate status in society and pay in
employment, I disagree that the title Engineer as generally used should, or
even could, retrospectively be protected.
It is a very old word, dating back to the time when all machines,
inventions, contrivances, etc. were known as engines, e.g. beer engine= beer
pump, difference engine= mechanical calculator and, historically, refers to
both the people with the ingenuity involved in designing them, and the
people responsible for operating and maintaining them. So, yes, even though
I would prefer to call them Mechanics, it can even include grease-monkeys!

There are more modern and precise titles which employers can use, but then
there is still great confusion.
For example, depending on the employer, job, and industry, someone like me
with an old IEE-accredited HND in Electrical & Electronic Engineering, could
well be called almost anything, including Technical Officer, Instrument
Mechanic, Engineering Technician, Electronics Technician or
Technician-Engineer or Engineer, Electrician, and Service Engineer.
In any of these situations, the employer would be aware of my
qualifications, capabilities and limitations, and I would in no way be
trying to pass myself off as a holder of any of the protected titles.
Martin.

[Engineering Boffin]

I believe that the title of Engineer should be protected. A
'qualification', or 'experience' does not make you an engineer. The
title should only be awarded to those who have demonstrated
competancies in their field against a recognised benchmark. Only then
will the ambiguity be resolved. Although this is somewhat addressed in
the UK by the title of CEng, few people aim for this title because
when obtained, you are still called an Engineer and so is the kitchen
help. Frustrating.

Best regards, Alan. (Working towards CEng - view my profile)

[Tim Gard]

My respect towards an engineer however is the individuals personal
characteristics. Someone who is pompous can still be a certified engineer,
but is probably a bad engineer. Thats because engineers are scientists, and
scientists can only be effective when they have an open mind.

Does lack of an engineering degree negate scientific abilities? I don't
think so, but the lack of a degree could keep one well suited from appling
his skill. Solution. If you have the skill and want to apply it, go to
college!

Tim Gard

Post by Engineering Boffin
I believe that the title of Engineer should be protected. A
'qualification', or 'experience' does not make you an engineer. The
title should only be awarded to those who have demonstrated
competancies in their field against a recognised benchmark. Only then
will the ambiguity be resolved. Although this is somewhat addressed in
the UK by the title of CEng, few people aim for this title because
when obtained, you are still called an Engineer and so is the kitchen
help. Frustrating.
Best regards, Alan. (Working towards CEng - view my profile)

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Post by Usual Suspect

Post by Danny

Post by Usual Suspect
In the States it's common for an on-call technician to be called a Field
Engineer when his job is to travel to a customer's site to accomplish repairs
or such.

if he's an on-call technician then he should be called a technician.
simple as that.

Because...? ("Simple as that" rings as a mommalie similar to "because I said
so".)

Because the customer wants repair or maintenance services performed. Not
engineering. Trust me, there are some engineers out there that you don't
want trying to fix things.

[Long Ranger]

Quite often, building maintanence personnel are refereed to as "stationary
engineers". Particularly if they are of the HVAC persuasion.

[Bud--]

Post by Long Ranger
Quite often, building maintanence personnel are refereed to as "stationary
engineers". Particularly if they are of the HVAC persuasion.

I think the licence to operate the steam boiler in a building is a
"stationary engineer" licence - differentiated from people who operate
boilers that are not stationary and move on tracks.

--
bud--

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Post by Usual Suspect

Post by John
I'm intrigued to know if in the Sates, if you phone up a company to get the
Heating Boiler/TV Antenna/Refrigerator/Dishwasher/etc/etc repaired if the
company tells you they are going to send round their "Engineer".
John

In the States it's common for an on-call technician to be called a Field
Engineer when his job is to travel to a customer's site to accomplish repairs
or such.

Hence the adjective "Field".

Post by Usual Suspect
But so what? I doubt that whomever is asking for a service visit will care if
he's called a "Service Clown" or Engineer or what. Similarly, when people are
asking for design services, or such, I think they don't really care (or ask)
if their title is "Engineer".

In this case you probably don't want (or need) an engineer. You need a
service technician.

In most (all?) States, the term 'Engineer' is reserved for one qualified
to provide services requiring engineering judgment. There are legal
consequences for providing engineering services, either as an individual
or a corporation, without the proper credentials.

Because of this, companies who provide repair services refrain from (or
are discouraged from) using the unqualified title 'engineer'.

[Frank Sharkey]

Post by John
A Downing Street petition to try and make the word Engineer legally
protected, like Architect or Solicitor.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

John:
Posting news is great. Posting the same article over 20x's is just
plain nuts!
Get a life.
Frank